85 comment(s)

1. Misi | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   Tell them sister.
   African men who think going home to find a wife is better than selecting one here better wake up. Not only is the devil you know better than the one you don’t know but women back home are also very enlightened nowadays and are extremely independent. So the solution of perfect companionship is no longer in Africa but in prayers.

2. issa mashambazhou | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   ‘It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house’ (Proverbs 21:9). Solomon couldn’t have put it clearer – And remember this was thousands of years ago when he wrote this proverb. Just a thought.

   You have presented your side of the story which may be true in some cases, but may not be true in other cases (the majority of cases). African women’s migration to the West has no doubt improved the African woman’s awareness of her ‘rights’ which in itself is not a bad thing. However, our understanding of certain aspects differ. There are women out there who believe that brawling or nagging or commanding is part and parcel of observing their rights – which is true…but unfortunately no man is prepared to put up with that. There are African women out there who grabbed the western cultures by the neck and desire to see their men running around doing all the household chores while they will be at some nightclub drowning themselves with liquor and snogging whoever appears to be hot.

   Marriage is a life long commitment which requires careful consideration of a number of things that include harmony. Men like to settle with women they know they will live with in harmony, not women who crave for equality in every single aspect of life nomatter how minute (small). It all comes down to our individual definitions of independence. So, if i know i can find myself a beautiful African girl who i can live with in harmony, a girl who NEEDS a husband – not somebody to compete with, then why shouldn’t i go back home if it’s where they are found?

   We must also remember that girls in Africa aren’t as dump and ignorant as they are portrayed by their counterparts in diaspora. On the contrary, they are smart and sexy too, but above all, they value marriage and work much more harder to make things work…and no, THEY ALSO DON’T NECESSARILY TAKE CRAP.

3. Pamela Stitch | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   “There are African women out there who grabbed the western cultures by the neck and desire to see their men running around doing all the household chores while they will be at some nightclub drowning themselves with liquor and snogging whoever appears to be hot.” Which African man?? Let us not exaggerate here!!

   You see you lay the problem there – the idea of competition . Many African men feel that they are competing with these women in the diaspora so they crave more control and yes that is what takes them seeking wherever….In the past, that will not have been an issue – women did not have that much opportunity..men could run around and make as much noise about their money and what have nots…but things have changed..women in the diaspora more often than not are better educated, might end up earning higher etc..so men need to change their perspective from one of competition to one of COOPERATION.

   By the way – women regardless of wherever they are value marriage and work hard at making it work. You cannot generalize like that.

   PS: I knew that our peace will only last one week. Back to WAR Issa!!

4. issa mashambazhou | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   Perhaps it might work out well if women in the diaspora would take a leaf out of African men’s book i.e. go back home and find themselves some SRB African guys (strong rural background).

5. Pamela Stitch | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   Misi: Thank You O Jare!! I knew that you will see my point of view.

6. Pamela Stitch | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   God forbid Issa!! Maka why? Don’t make me to start speaking shona here o!!! x-(

7. Omotaylor | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   This debate would be long and interesting. For one there are many sides to a story and no one can lay claim to just the one angle and make a good meal of it. As Pammy said, generalising would never give a true picture. I do not beleive African Women in the diaspora are running wild. African woman at home and abroad is the same. The only difference is that in the diaspora you cannot shut up the African woman with kicks and boxes and beatings that seems permissive in Africa. Domestic violence is not tolerated in the Western world and the woman soon wises up and honest I dont blame most of them. That said, there are a few exceptions of the garrulous African Woman but she would be the same in Africa or outside Africa.

   Many Nigerian men for example who go “home” to marry a wife and bring her abroad soon regret for wow when they get hit by their spouse from home, it is with serious vengeance. Why dont we promote the need for understanding RESPECT, love and care on both sides and especially from the African man who still mostly want to have their cake and eat it and get away with murder?

   This is just for starters. I will stay tuned on this topic for it is interesting.

   And by the way, the few African women who went back home to find themselves husbands seem to have better luck than vice versa. I wonder why?

8. Pamela Stitch | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   Lol!! Thank you Omo Taylor. Issa, I am waiting for your answer to her question.

9. Misi | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

   Ms Omo-T says “And by the way, the few African women who went back home to find themselves husbands seem to have better luck than vice versa. I wonder why?”—–I DON’T THINK SO, I have heard horror stories from friends who’ve brought men from Nigeria. So it happens to both male & female.

10. Omotaylor | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

    Thats the point Misi, we cannot generalise but can speak from either experience witnessed or gone through, so as you rightly said, it happens to both male and female. I know of success stories on the male side which are failure stories from your observations and many people will have different and conflicting experiences to share given the chance. Maybe we need to be more speicific when asking for general comments so that we can tackle problems well and proper.

11. Omotaylor | Nov 15, 2007 | Reply

    And still on Pammy’s point of view on this subject, do we think the Men from Home in Britain react/act different from those in the US of A? For me I think not.

12. Rockfan | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    Sometimes, it is hard walking that line between being traditional and being modern. I believe a lot of understanding is needed on both sides.

13. issa mashambazhou | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    You all seem to agree on the concept of generalizing. I agree with you there. However, is it not a generalization that women are more kicked, boxed and beaten up in Africa than in Western countries? Is it statistically true?

    My belief is that Africa has moved from the ancient primitive Africa where women used to be battered, to a modern Africa that is governed by lagislation that has it’s grassroots on the universal human rights act. Although observance of those laws is something else, we cannot deny the fact that African women enjoy more liberty that they did a few decades ago.

    If men in Diaspora are going to Africa to marry the supposedly ‘ignorant’ rural girls, are we saying they beat them up as soon as they set their feet on the shores of where ever they are living in Diaspora and escape prosecution? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s about men’s desire to beat up their wives, but i think it’s more to do with men’s desire to marry people they will live with in peace. This belief is supported by the fact that the majority of these men are actually supportive of their wives and are enroling them at colleges and universities to further their education in the diaspora IN GOOD WILL.

14. Rockfan | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    Unfortunately,I do not agree with you: the legislation does exist in many countries but women ARE STILL being battered all over the world. The main difference is that in Western countries there is more enforcement of these laws compared to Africa.

    Men marry these supposed rural girls because of the concept of innocence that exists. That is that they are not touched by western ideologies. Considering the amount of horror stories that do exists: I think it is safe to assume that is the wrong way to go. Innocence can’t be found in a particular place anymore.

    Men marry these girls because they can CONTROL them. That is the reason that this form of marriage is so tempting. Do they put these women through school – yes some do. But how much education are they allowed to have? I know of many women who came here, got their associate degrees but when it was time for their bachelors, their husband said no.

    Please, remove those blinkers. Men and women should learn how to coexist. Those power items are no longer reserved for men alone.

    Anyways, my intention was not to get involved in a gender war.

15. Omotaylor | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    @Rockfan, gender war or not, I am glad “you got involved” for you talked real sense which I agree with 100% and possibly for the first time I beg to differ with Issa for the CONTROL nature to most men (if not all) is very evident. Women still get well and truly battered in Africa and get away with it (even in the 21st Century). All these said, I am not unmindful of the fact that some women also take liberties, use the Western Liberation to behave “wild” in many dimensions. And lastly I echo Rockfan again for I love this paragraph -
    “Please, remove those blinkers. Men and women should learn how to coexist. Those power items are no longer reserved for men alone”.

16. Pamela Stitch | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    I have nothing more to add than this:

    Relationships in the diaspora need more respect and compromise than ever before.

17. issa mashambazhou | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    I asked if your assumption that women are battered more in Africa than in Europe and America is a fact supported by any indepth research or it’s just some fluffy analysis based on your individual experiences… and i didn’t get an answer to that.

    Secondly, is it a fact or assumption that all men (or majority of men) who exercise this practice of going to marry back home do so for the purpose of manipulating these so called ignorant rural girls?

    I ask these questions because your arguments just don’t add up. I think women really need to move on from this habit of conjuring up theories in which they are always the victims and, for once, look in the mirror and question their own innocence. The reality is that no man will ever be prepared to live with a woman whose perception of independence means challenging every decision he makes as the head of the family.

    It all comes down to individual attitudes. There are good African women living in the Diaspora too who have success stories regarding their marriages to men in the Diaspora. There are highly educated African women happily married to African men and their life stories DO NOT have batterings and manipulations etc. So let’s not generalize these batterings by labelling African men as the worst culprits as if we carried out an extensive research and found them so.

    I may not be able to speak for every African man, but if i was looking for a woman to marry, i would never confine my search to just the land i live in just for the sake of it. I know of African girls here in the UK who are living the wildest lives you could ever imagine. Their typical weekend involve going on binge drinking sprees and coming back home with sex partners. They are party animals and would give anything for a party. Yet they do expect to get married at some point in their lives.

    So yes, there are wild African girls living in the diaspora who would indeed make any men’s life a living hell, and these are not worthy living with. But that is not to say there aren’t any that are well behaved and possess marriage qualities. I must also point out that these attitudes exist in men too. Women should equally not be held to ransom to marry wild and immoral men just for the sake of it.

    I therefore stick to my argument that it’s NOT ALWAYS that men go to Africa to search for wives with an intention to control and/or manipulate them, but it may be more to do with the girls’ attitude. If your definition of being independent involves being a slut, then you can’t blame the poor African boy who choose to go back home to find at least somebody HE BELIEVES is more moral.

18. Pamela Stitch | Nov 16, 2007 | Reply

    First:

    Issa: If you are looking for stats on violence against women and where it takes place at: You can find that information all over. I recommend you go to this website:

    http://www.vday.org

    Second: Actually, if you ask men who went home to find wives – the answers that they give often times run along the same lines – the ideologies of innocence. End of story.

    Third: On challenging head of the family roles:

    What exactly is the challenge? Did you read the examples I gave – what are the challenges in there??
    \

    Victimization:
    I find it fascinating how men these days are claiming to be victims because the tide has turned and now they are facing ‘a weaker sex’ who is more often than not on par with them. Please, men, get over yourselves…seriously!!

    Being a slut = independence,
    I find that idea to be so fascinating. I never mentioned anything about going out to the clubs and drinking as if their lives depended on it. When I talk about independence, I mean economic independence and that is very clear in what I wrote.

    Babying African Men:
    I have never agreed with the concept of ONLY celebrating African men’s accomplishments and I have often asked the question who celebrates ours (African women). I think the time has come for men to stop seeing every accomplishment that a woman makes and celebrates as a challenge to their authority because that shows the ingrained need to control that STILL exists.

    I will stick to the fact (LOL): that African men when they complain about wild women in the diaspora, are more often than not coming from a NEED to control than anything else. They view their relationships with their women as one of competition more than anything else. Until that mentality changes, African men and women in the diaspora will keep on having relationship problems or African men will go marry their ‘innocent’ girls bring them here. These girls will meet other women who will show them how life really is and they will get two or three times the ‘wildness’ of African women.

    Of course, that does not always happen but as I mentioned, I have heard too many horror stories.

19. issa mashambazhou | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Yes you gave examples Pammy, but those examples are too narrow for you to generalize such a broad subject. You cannot say because you’ve met probably less than 50 African men who went back home to marry because of their callous desire to dominate/control/manipulate or whatever, means EVERY other African who does so does it for that same narrow purpose. That’s what i disagree with. I never said NOBODY does it for that purpose. I said some, and perhaps MOST don’t. If you had said SOME, i wouldn’t be arguing with you.

    Secondly, i rightly challenged your analysis on domestic violence which seems unsupported by any hard facts or research, apart from your very limited experiences. If we were to use our own experiences, i could tell you that there’s not a month that passes without me reading a story of a man who murdered his spouse or brutally attacked his spouse here in the United Kingdom for no justifiable reason. Shall we therefore say the UK men are the most volatile based on what i have read?

    I could tell you that i’ve met a number of men who have gone or intend to go to Africa to find women they BELIEVE THEY COULD LIVE WITH IN HARMONY…and i know some who have successfully done so and are living in perfect peace WITHOUT any batterings. As a man, i should have the right to marry whoever i believe NEEDS ME AS HER HUSBAND…not just somebody because they live where i live. It’s mostly about compartibility. The way you paint the African man is so unfair. You are literally accusing African men of being control freaks with some demented desire to enslave ‘innocent’ women, which is grossly inaccurate.

    Victimization?
    I never suggested that men are victims, but rather, i challenged women to ditch their habit of raising the ‘victim card’ each time things don’t go their way. I said so because instead of encouraging women to look at themselves and objectively investigate and IF NEED BE, alter certain attitudes in order for them to get noticed by their counterparts in the Diaspora, you are suggesting that it’s ALL MEN’S FAULT, THEY ARE THE DEVILS, THEY ARE GOING TO GET GIRLS THEY CAN EXPLOIT etc, which to me sounds paranoid.

    You talk about those who have done it and it hasn’t worked out well. Yes definitely some of those relationships won’t work just as much as some, if not most, relationships with Diaspora’s wild cards won’t work. But people look at averages and the fact that men continue to do it (according to your article) suggests that there is a significant percentage of success stories…otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it.

20. Pamela Stitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Issa: All I am going to do is just quote passages from what I wrote:

    “But now the tides have changed and many African men in the diaspora are very unhappy and choosing to go home to the village to pick their ‘innocent’ wives. I have heard so many horror stories about these women but that is a topic for another day.”

    “Let’s be real, the issue is not that African women in the diaspora have become wild rather it is that African men in the diaspora seem to have a problem dealing with the changes that has to occur to survive in the diaspora. A successful modern African home is now more based on compromise and respect more than ever before.”

    Now: Issa, you should have asked what those changes are?

    I bet you did not go to the site I recommended. Issa, if you really were looking for those stats – those stats abound. That is not even a point.

    If we are going to talk about abuse and compare the western world to Africa: we will just have to look at issues of legislation and culture. In the West, women are least likely to put up with abuse compared with Africa where the culture of SILENCE still exists.

    On paranoia: I will say that that your equating the independent African woman to the drunk who hits the club every night and snogs men is paranoia. Paranoia depends on how you look at it.

    You keep on coming back to the phrase, “needs me as a husband” – lol!! What does that need mean? Hiding accomplishments? Pretending to be a dumb person? Or does that mean putting up with inhumane treatment that makes no sense? The fact remains – BOTH partners are needed in a relationship to make it work. NOT ONE person is needed more that the others. I hope this “need” does not mean that African men go to the village looking for simpering belles who NEED them because they have no choice. It is old news that many of these women marry these men to get out of countrys that are failing economically. But that is a topic for another day.

    Anyhoos Issa: we will never agree on this topic. Let’s open up the floor for others to talk/type.

21. issa mashambazhou | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    “But now the tides have changed and many African men in the diaspora are very unhappy and choosing to go home to the village to pick their ‘innocent’ wives. I have heard so many horror stories about these women but that is a topic for another day.”

    Assumption 1: African men in the Diaspora are unhappy.
    What makes you think they are ALL unhappy?

    Assumption 2 They are going to pick their ‘innocent’ wives. Who says they ALL are doing so for that purpose?

    Generalization: I have heard so many horror stories about these women… Are the ’so many horror stories’ generalizable on a larger scale?
    ———————————————

    “Let’s be real, the issue is not that African women in the diaspora have become wild rather it is that African men in the diaspora seem to have a problem dealing with the changes that has to occur to survive in the diaspora. A successful modern African home is now more based on compromise and respect more than ever before.”

    That’s your opinion Pammy. Opinions are open to criticism. You have no hard evidence to suggest that ‘that’s real’.
    ———————————–

    About the stats: According to Hierarchy of Evidence in research, where does vday.org fall?
    ————————————–

    If we are going to talk about abuse and compare it to the western world to Africa: we will just have to look at issues of legislation and culture. In the West, women are least likely to put up with abuse compared with Africa where the culture of SILENCE still exists.

    Is this a fact or another opinion?

    ————————————-
    I’ll be back to answer the last bit about paranoia and needing a man. I gotta go out now. I’ll be back…rest assured.

22. Pamela Stitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    As I mentioned Issa: I have said all I have to on this topic..so until another person comments…I have nothing further to say about this. We do not see eye to eye on several topics and this happens to be one of them.

    But I will say this: Take off those blinkers(sorry rockfan ), there is a culture of SILENCE in Africa on so many issues and abuse is one of them.

23. Frederic N'sienie | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Interesting exchange, but for now the arguments advanced by Issa seem to support a more logical approach to the issue.

    I was wondering if the issue could be reframed, I am from the city so all this talk of Village girls being more innocent and good to marry , I am not quite sure about as I only frequented city women for the most part of my romantic life.
    A good person is a good person, there got to be a universal characteristics ,that a so called good person regardless of class,color,race,education etc., must have to be considered so.

    What makes a good Husband and what makes a good wife since Marital duties and rights varies according to the circumstances and the cultural/social/economical realities ?

    In terms of being wild, what do you mean ? That women/men of diaspora are barbarous,unrestrained,uncultured ? The example of women drinking and sexing [ with who ?]Can i say that everywhere I go I see the same free-spirited women/men.From my personal observation and experience that has nothing to do with being in the diaspora, drinking,sexing,free-spirited,liberal woman and man are found all over the earth from Abidjan,Accra,Dakar,Kampala,Douala,Joburg,Asmara,Addis-Abeba,Paris,London,Hong ong,Sydeny,Rio,Madris,Prague to ,Kingston,Toronto,New York, the list goes on and on. If you live in the city , you encounter the city lifestyle.The city lifestyle is made of abudance of choices,private life and self-dependence. The pure(?) and innoncent(?) village girl can also be be found in the rural areas of France,Germany,USA,UK,Russia,Brazil.

    I would advice my fellow diaspora folks to save some money and go relate the local pure and innocent girls of their host- countries.
    By the way,cheating,sexing,nagging is practised by villagers too, they may not have as much opportunity or financial means to do so , that is all.

    So please ,let’s get off our high horses, the true issue at hand is probably the high number of people wondering if they ever going to get hitched by someone out of their cultural/racial group [ group acceptance] more so than anything else . the fear of not finding that “Love/acceptance” from your own,leads them to come with some bogus theories.

    As of women or men beaten ,killed,eaten by their companion, that happens regardless of where you live. Wife and husband get killed,poisoned,set up by their companion from Vancouver to Beijing.

    Could we expand on the culture of silence in Africa? Are we sure of that, whose culture are we referring to ? The Akan, the Malinke,the Kran, the Zulu, the Somalis, the pula, the Berber ,the wolof,the malagasy, the Kongo,the San ? Are we considering the cultures in a urban or rural context ?

24. pamelastitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Hi Frederick,
    Yes, you do bring some great arguments. LOL!! Is Issa’s logical? I am sorry I beg to differ. This topic is one that does incite gender rantings.

    “So please ,let’s get off our high horses, the true issue at hand is probably the high number of people wondering if they ever going to get hitched by someone out of their cultural/racial group [ group acceptance] more so than anything else . the fear of not finding that “Love/acceptance” from your own,leads them to come with some bogus theories.”

    Actually, if you live in any city in the diaspora, the likelihood of that happening is higher (dating out of your culture). We have many African women dating interracially. (I completely applaud them for that!! )

    REASONS FOR GOING HOME TO SEEK A WIFE:

    But I was more concerned about the reason that was given for marrying these women. If a guy tells me I married her because I fell in love with her. I can accept that. If he tells me that there was something about her that attracted him. I can completely accept that. I just get a bit more concerned if what I keep on getting is:
    Women in America are crazy. They cannot be controlled. They feel that they are all that. They look down their nose at African men. They have no culture. They are always on their high horse because they have this, that and the other.
    I think that is cause for concern. Because upon further investigations, most of the whinnying is based on their idea of how an African woman coming straight from Africa will behave. The fact is, the environment changes people both men and women. You cannot expect that an African woman that has stayed here for sometime will completely behave like one that is still back home.

    On Silence:
    When I talk about a culture of silence, I am talking about women being in abusive relationships back home and not being able to talk about it because they don’t want to be seen in a bad light. Or they will be accused of instigating this abuse. I am talking about a society in which legislations do exist to protect women but few actually enforce these legislations because of how they will be viewed.

25. Frederic N'sienie | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Gender ranting is good if done in the almost healthy manner I see it done on this thread.

    You probably have more knowledge about Issa debating skills than I do, so I have nothing further to say about that.

    On woman dating interecially
    I do not know if it should be applauded as much as it just a normal behaviour.A woman should date/marry whoever, she pleases ,and pleases her.Why stay in a pool of frog when plenty of charming princes are awaiting a few feet away.It does not matter of the charming princes are from a different village,city,country,continent,race,planet or universe. If I had a daughter or son ,I would tell them to marry the person that have the characteristics to make them happy as long they have the emotional,mental,physical,intellectual attributes necessary to be a man or woman of manifestation[ Bring to life their inner gold mine].

    This type of person is ussually not concerned with matters of race,social class or ethnicity, their mind eyes allow them to see the person for what they are.

    On silence back home
    where is back home ? Africa is not in actuality home to anyone,geographically yes but not culturally [or even legally] and it is culture that defines a great percentage of our natural personnality.Actually the culture of the society at large, then your household culture, finally your personnal culture [ which is the an individual has more control over]

    So when you say back home,
    what country(s),city(s) or village(s) do you claim ? I think it is important to be precise in our referral to home. I was born and raised in Abidjan, ivory Coast , because it is a fact that culturally I am different from the person in Bouake or Touba ,Korogho or Touba except for the universal traits we share.

    The same way a Parisian is different from a Marseillais or a New Yorker is different from a Texan or someone from Toyko is different from a Nagasaki city dweller.

    THE MYTH OF THE BATTERED AFRICAN WOMEN
    In some African societies women are very outspoken, have and enforce a lot of rights given to them by societies. In other societies women are lucky if they are consider with the same respect a dog receives. How many of the latter exist compare to the former is a stat, we should have before the debate can move forward.

    Channels of communication and conflict resolution procedures differ from cultures to cultures , so one “silent” culture might be speaking in a manner that the untrained eyes can not recognize.

    The point is that ,while silence on many considered taboo subjects is a reality in countable African societies, communication is alive and well in others. A study should be conducted to find out the percentage of truly silent societies where the ills of abuse,mistreatment and ignorance are left running rampant.

    Reason for going home:
    Why do you have to accept anything ? I thought the point was to analyze a social phenomenom with a scientific eye, not to like or dislike the choice made by woman or man about who they date,marry or lay with.

26. pamelastitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    But the whole article is based on the question on ” are African women in the diaspora wild (uncultured)?”.

    HMM…You do bring up an interesting point about communication techniques in different societies in Africa.

27. Frederic N'sienie | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    I was more so responding based on the comments and arguments made by you and Issa in my previous posts, Nonetheless let’s not forget to consider two variables though when debating, the host culture and the guest culture.

    If the article question is about African women in the diaspora being uncultured, then the answer is yes for many and no for many more.
    It varies from country to country and even within a country the phenomenon varies from Ethnic groups to ethnic groups.

    Some groups,countries are better at keeping their cultural values constant and firm within their communities. Some other groups are more prone to abandonment of their cultural make up so to blend in and merge with the host culture.

    Again a study must be conducted to find out the ratio/percentage of women in diaspora that are uncultured and find out if it is by choice,by default, for practical self-interest etc..

    what characteristics define the individuals,groups or nationalities that tend to reaffirm their culture and the one that tend to become uncultured even when facing the same variables ?

    But from the discussion thread and many before on other forums, the issue seems to be far away from these considerations and more so issues of morality and women rights.
    The morality or immorality of the diaspora woman is a urban myth, she is not more moral or immoral than their counterparts in their countries of origin or adoption.

    As of women rights, let’s use a different example than the sempiternal TIRED OF COOKING story, the man cooks in a lot of African societies/cultures, the man knows how to mantain his environement/room in a lot of cultures.
    And many African cultures have women who traditionally hold the purse , provide their share to the household budget.
    Do not let the macro-economic policies applied by short-sighted trained managers fool you. The story of the economically depressed African woman is also a Marketing Scheme.I concur that a countable number of people are economically depressed because they do not have access to their share of the society ressources/income. At the same time it includes both men and women.

    There are a lot of mutual funds and investment funds inspired not by some IMF or WORLD Bank plan but by old aged financial systems that allow women and men to lift themselves out of financial dependence and that with the blessing of the men in their lives.

    When it is all sid and done , I do see where you are coming from and you raised valid points within a certain context but the many variables at play is something the diaspora folks lack to consider sometimes.
    By the way Diaspora to me is an individual that was born or migrated abroad before their formative years and reside there ever since.
    If you came for the first time @ age 18-19-20, you are just a temporarely displaced continental.
    Till another enriching debate.
    Frederic
    http://africaincorp.com

28. issa mashambazhou | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Culture of silence

    Perhaps our differences on the interpretation of this ’silence’ are as a result of the different countries that we come from. I don’t know much about west Africa, but in Zimbabwe, despite the present political situation, campaigns against domestic violence have been overwhelmingly received. There is a police establishment within every radius of AT MOST 35 miles in that country and the majority of women in the country do report abuse and the punishments are much more severe there than here in UK.

    My understanding is that those who choose to be silent do so because they probably have more realistic expectations than Western women who are quick to jump off ship at the first wave (and very often never make it to the shores). African women seem to know that it’s not going to be a ride in the park or a fairy tale in which princess meets prince charming and live happily ever after. The ‘happily ever after’ assumption has, probably, lead to the soaring figures in western countries on divorces in which the real victims are the children. Perhaps you would rather have that but i personally value women who are prepared to rise above arguments stronger without necessarily having to spit venom or throw stones all over the place in retaliation.

29. pamelastitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    “Perhaps you would rather have that but i personally value women who are prepared to rise above arguments stronger without necessarily having to spit venom or throw stones all over the place in retaliation.”

    I am sure that many women will also rather have that reciprocated as well.

    There are many factors why divorce rates are low in many parts of Africa. One of the factors is the effect of society and family on a marriage. Family is very involved in keeping couples who will under normal circumstances split together.

    Now, I hope you aren’t supporting women who stay in abusive relationships as the best way to go.

    If memory serves me right, when situations arise in which their are arguments, isn’t the woman’s name tarnished by the MAN!!!!

30. issa mashambazhou | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    Are you suggesting that families, therapists, counsellors, relationship specialists and friends aren’t involved in westerners’ marriages?

    Ofcourse they are.

    No i don’t support the idea of staying in abusive relationships. However, the term ‘abuse’ or ‘abusive’ is very broad i.e. it encompasses even the most trivial forms of abuse, some of which is definitely not significant enough to prompt a divorce. On that basis, i can argue that strong-willed women are those that have the strength to rise above such trivial matters.

    But having said that, the severity of abuse is very individual (nomatter how small it looks) and IF any woman feels she can’t put up with it, it is within her rights to report it or dump him.

31. issa mashambazhou | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    That was my last response on this topic. It has taken too much of my time. My next comment will be at the end of December coz i’m gonna be extremely busy from today till end of Dec. It’s been a pleasure debating with you Pammy. hahahahaha.

32. pamelastitch | Nov 17, 2007 | Reply

    lol!!

    You had to wait till I had left to respond…hmm

    I do agree that others are involved to a certain extent in relationships that take place in the west..but I question the amount of powers to influence that these people have. We both have to agree that Parents have a heavy influence in relationships that take place back home, particularly marriage. Parents can sometimes turn the tide on a relationship heading towards divorce or separation.

    Having said that: Have a wonderful study time. I know that you will be back before December. Later.

33. Omotaylor | Nov 18, 2007 | Reply

    Hiyya guys, very intersting and educative comments above (not that i agree with all said) but we learn from all ideas, suggestions and thinkings. I credit the resilience and patience of Pammy, Issa and Frederic, and I am happy about the constructive trend of the discourse and most importantly happy to note that all is well that ends well.

    Without drawing anybody back into this argument I really will like to say to Frederic, as much as I agree and actually value most of what you say, please refrain from using the word MYTH when the issue of battered women is mentioned, be it in Africa or Worldwide. If you work in the field where DV is concerned and if you have heard of the horror stories and death of too many battered women, you will understand why I am saying this to you. Please working in the Public Sector/Social field, the grave concern of Battered Women is not a Myth. Let us pray we dont have any of our friends and relative ever in such a situation. I personally would not have beleived most of the deep horror stories (India is not left out in this) if I hadnt worked as a Police Special and in Local Government Social field.

    As much as some women are the perpetrators of violence and turn the table around, the issue of the defenceless, timid and psychologically+physically battered womon is REAL

34. Frederic | Nov 18, 2007 | Reply

    To Omotaylor,

    I hope that my use of the word Myth was not misconstrued,I did notintend to deny the existance of battered and Abused Women or Men at the hands of other Men or women.
    I happen to have relatives and friends that have been ,are or will be [ from the look of things] in physically/psychollogically/emotionaly abusive relationships.I know of Poisoning,stabbing,shooting,punching,raping,public humiliation and the likes
    However I know way more friends and relatives in healthy/constructive realtionships.

    The Myth of the Battered African women is therefore not a statement to say that they are not any battered Women in Africa , a lot of women get battered everyday and I do not deny their suffering.However a lot more get loved and treated with respect and dignity everyday and I will certainly broadcast their joy/stability, thus obtaining the balance of facts that allow us to see the African realm for what it is and not let our judgement clouded by the daily broadcast of the Ills of AFRICA on Tv,Forums,Newspapers,and Blogs.

    It will be interesting for the PHDs in social studies to conduct a 5-10 years investigation of relationships in Africa , the code of conducts as well as the channels communications etc…

35. pamelastitch | Nov 18, 2007 | Reply

    I came here earlier than that @ frederic…

36. Don Thieme | Nov 19, 2007 | Reply

    I have fantasies now myself about all of these wild African women left stranded over here in the diaspora. Are there really so many around over here for us westerners to seduce? Please do show them to me, if so! ! !

37. Frederic N'sienie | Nov 19, 2007 | Reply

    @Pamela, this would mean that you are true Diasporan[made up that word], unlike me who falls in the Temp displaced category.

38. Omotaylor | Nov 19, 2007 | Reply

    @frederic, thanks for your response. I feel much better and sorry if I came down hard, just that I have seen too many very pitiable and emotional cases that I cannot stand the thought of trivialising the issue. As that was not your intention, I understand.

    @Don, sorry Don, from your comment above seems you had one to many palmwine with the Egusi, Guineafowl and “viper dish” served with Foufou – lol!!! This could be the reason for your “Western Fantasy”. Leave African Women in the diaspora alone oh. They are good women.

39. issamashambazhou | Nov 19, 2007 | Reply

    I know i said i wasn’t gonna make any further comments, but i had a very interesting discussion with a close friend of mine who recently went back home, and thought i should share it. I asked him about his motive and what he thought about most men who do it and he said, most people regardless of their race, feel more comfortable marrying women who they share the same beliefs and interests with. This means most African men would prefer to marry women from their own country and if available, from their own tribe.

    But because the populations of Africans living in the diaspora is too small, it’s quite feasible that in some towns, there may just be, say, 1000 women originally from one’s own country. If you take away the number of women who are either already married or too young to marry from that number, you might just be left with, say, 200 girls. Of those 200 girls, if 50% of them are the party girls (wild cards), that leaves you with only 100 girls. From that 100, 50% will probably not find you attractive enough for them, which leaves 50 girls. Of the remaining 50 girls, half of them may not be pretty enough for you, leaving you with 25. Maybe half of those 25 are already in relationships with other boys, which leaves the whole town with 12. Because people in diaspora spend enormous amounts of time either working or in colleges, you may never find opportunities to meet 2 thirds of those 12…leaving you with only 4 available to choose from.

    I can’t remember the other variable he used to narrow it down to 2 girls, but i found his explanation and figures very hilarious, yet quite practical to some extent. His point was, home provides a larger pond to fish from compared to Diaspora. So i just couldn’t help spending a little more of my time here. haahahaha.

40. Don Thieme | Nov 19, 2007 | Reply

    @Omotaylor: So there are “good,” “cultured” African women who are still single over here in the diaspora as well? You are asking me to leave them alone because once I have touched them they will be wild and no good as African wives?

41. Omotaylor | Nov 20, 2007 | Reply

    @Don, you lose me oh, but if you are lucky to touch one, trust me, you will be the one saying “I do” at the altar faster than the womam. You have been warned.

    @Issa, so Pammy’s prediction above was right – “Having said that: Have a wonderful study time. I know that you will be back before December. Later.” This is even sooner than I expected. Anyways, I was kinda hoping you will find time between studies to ginger the discussions and flow of ideas on the Loft. So now I say – SEE YOU SOON

42. pamelastitch | Nov 21, 2007 | Reply

    Issa, Omo T and Fred: You all are very funny.

    Issa: I don’t agree with your friend….Yes, there is a larger pool of women in Africa but there are a lot of them outside Africa as well. We don’t have a small community…..

    thank you…

    Pammy

43. issamash | Nov 21, 2007 | Reply

    Omo T: She knows me frighteningly well. It sounds strange but sometimes she even knows what i will think before i even think of it. She must’ve been brilliant in psychology.

    Pammy: You’re right. There are many outside Africa, but his point was, they are dotted all over the country (be it UK or USA), so much that the population in one town, for example, may actually be too small. They could be many in London and NY, but considerably fewer in other smaller cities and towns. I hadn’t thought about it myself, but i really found his argument feasible because i have been to towns myself here in UK, where you rarely see a black person, let alone one from your own country.

    All the same, thanks for this discussion. Though i might be argumentative at times, i definitely did learn a few things from everybody that responded. I will be back soon. Issa.

44. Flyboy | Nov 25, 2007 | Reply

    It’s wrong fro you to assume that African man want a woman who is some kind of doormat. For your own information, I am 30 and all my friends have either married or want to marry a woman who has her worth as well adn so did i, not some doormat to give instructions to…..and you are wrong in assuming that women that are not in the diaspora are dump and are not aware of their potential. All what man want is a wife….not someone to compete with coz why compete in the home for goodness sake…its just a place both of you to be happy and relax. Even the british woman does most of the house chores than their male counterparts. If one once help in the chores….just say it and I will gladly assist….my wife is an established banker and has a masters in Finance but she wont let me touch her kitchen because “thats my area”. I help her here and there when need be….and yes I got her from back home…

45. Eleene | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    My analysis on the issue:
     The biggest complaints from most African women about our men are insincerity and control. However, don’t the men cheat with the same African women?
     The biggest complaints from most African men about us are control and materialism. Are African women really materialistic?
     Most African women, including ones I know, suddenly, have a list of criteria that don’t fit most African men. E.g. tall figured, educated, romantic, can buy flowers and lace, cooks, cleans, drives us around and pay for all social outings. Has the African woman gotten a little carried away?
     Are African women themselves romantic? Do we send flowers to our men on a promotion or their birthdays? You see, I believe life is give and take, not take and keep on taking. Romance can be initiated from either side.
     How do we approach and resolve our issues? What’s about a little respect? Talking, instead of yelling.
     Are some Africans confused? I’ve observed so often, when I meet an African woman who claims to be westernized, but don’t quite understand what westerners do in their homes. A good number of white women are the sole bread winners in their homes. However, hardly anyone knows that. When a western couple fight, right before going out with friends, it’s hard to tell, as they would still be touching and kissing as if nothing happened at home. Do African women have attitudes?
     What’s up with the talk about juju in relationships? How would love flourish if there is fear?
     As an African woman, I think we ought to drop the attitudes, stop having sex with other women husbands, create more self awareness, become emotionally balanced, have higher self esteems, embrace other African women and enjoy life! All men like intelligent women that are well rounded.
     There are definitely African men with their share of problems; however, their issues can only be as bad as we allow them to be.
     I definitely think some African women are way over their heads about life in America. As for being wild, I can only say, some African women are disgrace to our community. So often, we talk about Americans and their lack of values. Do we really have values? Is there a craze out there with African women chasing men, including white men? Some white men think African women are easy to get into bed?

    Do we need to just teach ourselves how to balance western and African cultures?

46. pamelastitch | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    “. tall figured, educated, romantic, can buy flowers and lace, cooks, cleans, drives us around and pay for all social outings. Has the Afrjcan woman gotten a little carried away?” – Is that being carried away I wonder.

    “Are African women themselves romantic?” I am sorry but I believe that the African woman is very romantic. They might not send flowers but they do a lot to show that they care. Many African women buy gifts for their men just because….

    Respect: Respect goes both ways. I hope that is also for the men. In most instances that I have observed, it is normally the man yelling trying to assert control and expecting the woman to sit back and accept it.

    I definitely agree with you on women becoming more emotionally balanced, have higher self esteem.

    Women chasing men: I do agree that some do that. But, is the problem you have with women chasing all men or chasing white men. Look, we are in the diaspora and you never know where love could find you. It could find you in the arms of a man of a different race/culture Or the same race or culture.

    Ignore Typos….

47. pamelastitch | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    Now about white women who are bread winners: trust me if you are close to them, they will tell you that they are responsible for either putting their husband’s through school or that they are the bread winners. The only difference is that in many of such homes, the man PICKS UP MORE responsibilities around the home – something, that many of our African men really do not want to do.

48. Frederic N'sienie | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    @ Eleene, thank you for the balanced,factual,logical and well articulated answer you provided here. This is very hard to find on most African forums.
    And as you can see, the answers provided to you do not include points you made that are valid and very strong such as :
    “Don’t the men cheat with the same women?” strategically avoided

    “Aren’t African women really materialitic?”strategically avoided
    “How do we resolve our issues talking or yelling” strategically avoided

    ” what is up with Juju ? Strategically avoided
    ” Are some Africans confused” Strategically avoided

    ” some African women are way other their heads about life in America” Totally ignored.
    ” Do we really have values” totally ignored

    Facing the hard facts and articulating clear steps/solutions that can served as tools for all to use is something most africans will run away from,myself included. Going in circle in endless discussion, give us the olympic gold medal.
    Not to take away from the camaraderie and release we get from conversations and all but our conversations should never be pointless and with no clear outcome.

    Men and women are at fault, let’s point out issues and tools/solutions to be used not accuse one and exonerate the other group

49. Pamela Stitch | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    Oh pls Fred,
    Ideas are factual and logical only when it agrees with your opinion…:P

    Men cheating with women: was not mentioned in the above article..

    Neither was the idea of materialism or juju (actually, I wondered at where she was getting that from and decided maybe it was her own experience.)

    Considering that she could not give me evidence of how women are over their heads – I was not going to bother.

    I answered the questions that were relevant to the article.

    Fred: Reading into her comments – she started off as being balanced and then moved on to going against women.

    The facts are these: there is a stereotype against women in the diasporas…people should stop pussy footing around that….

    Ignore the Typos again!

50. Frederic N'sienie | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    The issue of African women being wild or not wild is not the , there are two extremes on the specrum of women in all societies, the public women and the rare jewel with plenty navigating in between.
    The African women chasing men and sleeping around has nothing to do with being in America, it is plenty of them in rural and urban areas of Africa,Some of them have never seen a plane or a car, they are still hoeing around. That is not the issue.

    Look at the type of answers one forumist is giving , we refuse to look at reality , to the point where we are advided that a woman getting drilled around town will find love, I guess the kind of deep sexual attraction, not selfless love needed to survive the obstacles that will come in marriage or serious relationship.

    Most men know who the hoes are, because words get past around in the inner circles.The same with women,words get passed around about the sexual fit you can get from so and so.

    @Pamela, how are you ? Why would you like to believe, let’s figure out a way where we will know that most african women are romantic [ in the sense that you understand what romance is], plus are you talking about African women leaving on the continent or overseas.
    I am sure you are a lot what you defend on this forum,reason why you feel so strong about the case of african women, but you are one among 700 million African women worldwide,look around you,look closely at you average African educated women.My years in college have exposed me to African women from Sierra Leone,Nigeria,Ghana,Ivory coast,Mali,Ethiopia,America,Haiti,Jamaica etc.. the only ones that would exhibit somewhat of a ” normal” behaviour would be SOME church going women who due to their deep devotion to the lord would be normal.
    everything else was ,self-esteem issues,short-mindness,loud-mouthed and uncontrolled tempers.

    Men and women are humain beings with flaws and as long as the African men and women do not integrate in their daily life the tools to work on these flaws, the same issues we read here would be voiced by some forumist 100 years from now.

    It is time for Africans to have some other kind of problems

51. pamelastitch | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    Fred: We cannot define what kind of problems that Africans should have or should not have. If something is an issue that I have noticed I will write about it. If it revibrates for people they will respond. Considering that this topic has been going on for so long – I guess this proves that it is an issue.

    On the issue of romance: I was responding to Eleene’s concept of what romance is which she equated it to flower giving and the whole nines. She further challenged African women on if they were romantic using the same basis. I answered back that we might not give flowers but there were other things on the list being done by African women.

    Now if we are going to talk about hoeing around and women being called hoes because of what they do sexually: then we will have to start addressing issues of double standards as to why a woman will be called a hoe for doing what some men do and get away with.

    Now you mentioned some experiences (not sure if it is yours or ppl around you – couldn’t get that ) with some women in the diasporas but you know what I have often found so fascinating: the fact that women here might be called uncultured maybe because the environment has changed them and they aren’t as submissive as their ‘african’ counterparts but no one looks at how that same environment has changed the man.

    I think my next article should be, “Have African Men In The Diasporas Lost It”

52. Eleene | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    Pamela, thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate your honesty. To your remarks: I don’t have a problem with a person dating outside of his/her race neither have I experienced materialism or juju issues in any relationship. Actually, I’ve never dated an African man; am only speaking from what I hear and see over and over again. Having a psychology background has given me the opportunity to probe into issues before making analysis. Maybe, am just a little frustrated with the issues in our communities that aren’t being properly addressed. We can not continue blaming one gender for the problems. Everyone contributes equally! So what do we do?

53. Issamash | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    On my first comment on this topic, i ticked the ‘notify me of follow up comments’ box, which means i get a message each time somebody comments. otherwise i wouldn’t be here after having already said two goodbyes.

    Anyway,Issa just couldn’t ignore Eleene’s comment because that deserves applause. It is a valid point that the African woman seem to be entangled between two cultures and at the present moment, there’s a little bit of confusion as to which of the two she would really want. The end result is that she wants BOTH i.e. take away variables that are not conducive to her from the African culture and replace them with aspects that suit her (borrowed from the western culture…or cultureless). It doesn’t matter whether or not her African boy can cope with it. According to her, he ought to be able to cope because the western boy is able.

    This results in absolute chaos because the ideal African boy who she would really want to marry and settle with, isn’t quite sure which way to go either. It is also a sad fact that most African girls’ philosophy is that of take, take and take, which is a stark contrast to the western girl’s and ideal philosophy of take as you give. This is by no means the African girl’s fault, but a cultural philosophy.

    I am by no means an advocate of primitive and exploitative cultures. On the contrary, i would support a fair-minded approach which benefits BOTH African men and women. If both men and women are carrying the yoke of burdensome and primitive culture, it wouldn’t be fair to unyoke women only and leaving the poor African boy yoked alone.

54. Omotaylor | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    Ha cant keep away Issa, African Loft is very missable. Anyways how are your studies going? Best of luck.

55. Issamash | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply

    The loft is quite addictive lol. About studies…i’m a bit behind, but i’ve always been like that. A pretty bad habit i must say, but i do tend to pull a rabbit out of a hat if need be. hahahaha. I hope you’re doing great Omo T.

56. Omotaylor | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply

    Real good and thank God for little and good mercies Issa. You will catch up with the acada “studies”, dont worry for you are a Lofter and destined for success only. Just a few more weeks to go.

57. ME | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply

    I will just love to add this:

    The african man who has lived in the diasporas is DEFINITELY very different from that back home – so it begs the question: why are they allowed to change and be different and yet african women in the diasporas are ’supposed’ to remain the same.

    So sorry Issa: I am not buying the poor African man in the diaspora’s theory.

    Both sides have to accept change!!

    Excuse Typos again.

58. Issamash | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply

    The Diaspora man has changed in what ways ME? I’m not getting your point. We aren’t talking about inevitable changes such as speech, dressing etc, but we’re talking about cultural changes such as expectations. So what do Diasporans (made up word)expect from their women which African men in Africa don’t expect or vice versa?

59. Frederic | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply

    Good question Issa , I can not wait to read the answers to it.

60. Pamela | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply

    Are you trying to tell me Issa that you see the world through the same spectacles as you saw it before you moved to the UK from Africa?? hmm??
    The environment changes people and that my dear is inevitable – I just find it fascinating, how men feel that they can pick what they want to keep and get rid of others that don’t fit what they want.

    Elene: “tall figured, educated, romantic, can buy flowers and lace, cooks, cleans, drives us around and pay for all social outings. ” Sorry for coming back to this…BUT…Is this the attitude of African women in the diasporas or those being gotten from home. Most African women that I know are very independent so they are DEFINITELY NOT waiting for a man to drive them around or wharever, they drive themselves. When these women talk about cleaning etc, they talk about men picking more responsibilities around the house and acknowledging the fact that there are TWO people who are facing the SAME amount of stress. I am talking about career women not women who are stay at home wives.

61. Frederic | Dec 4, 2007 | Reply

    @ Pamela, you are not looking objectively at the issue. Your social circle and life experience unless encompassing of the full spectrum of people, situations and avg outomes can not be used only to discuss such matter.
    Moreover what many are trying to point out on the forum is that this should not be about Men VS Women.
    It is not about having a winner or a loser. The lady before was not rying to give women the bad rap, she asked legitimate questions and if you notice, I , Issa and some other forumists, point out the Men mistakes and faults and what we should do about it. You keep overlooking it ,blinded by some sort of agenda.
    It feels like The pro- woman agenda through which you seem to see MEN and ABUSERS , TYRANTS, WIFE-BEATER, MANIPULATORS, BUSHWOMEN LOVING that would not be able to do it to your kind, the independent, I -Need – not – a – man[ at least not in the traditional sense], sophisticated, educated western based champion of the woman cause is old and tired. It has been heard, seen and witnessed crashing time and time again.

    Expand your views, talk to your elders, read up the biographies of the feminist thinkers molding the views you hold [and so many before you] and try to analyze what molded their ,character , thought process and really consider if their ideas are good for you.
    Life is simple and there are simple principles guiding it. Align yourself to them.
    You keep talking about African culture and I know through my lecture of african cosmoloies, philosophies and talking to elders that a lot of african societies are about balance and fairness in relationship and problem- solving because they understand the forces of nature.
    What the west is discovering through the New age movement, Fung shui,Kaballah, Yoga ,Tao etc.. is already known in a lot of African cultures.
    These African cultures are not about oppossing men and women as they complement each other.
    You are manifesting your thoughts within a spirit of separation, whatever you might say is tainted from the start.
    Embrace men and you will see the solution to this minor issue.

    What you might want to consider is that African men and women have not yet found the tools to cope with demands of the urban lifestyle, the demands are high and permanent, they are present in all aspect of a person life, emotional, sexual, spiritual, professional, financial, intellectual etc…
    the tools can be of varied source, cultural, religious, intellectual, mental, spiritual, financial , social etc..

    Since you are in the west and a modern professional woman, I would suggest you to take a closer look at the life and times of the entertainer Madonna , she is good example of adopting your kind of stance, coming crashing only to align herself with the simple principles of life.

62. Don Thieme | Dec 4, 2007 | Reply

    @Frederic – I am quite puzzled by this most recent comment of yours. It seems to me that some African people have been living in cities at least as long, if not longer, than Europeans have. Some cities in Nigeria, in particular, date back to medieval times and earlier. So there should really be no difference between Africans and Europeans in terms of time depth of urbanism. All societies do have continuing issues of adjustment between urban centers and their hinterland, but that should not be the same as the adjustment of Africans traveling abroad to countries dominated by those of European descent.

63. Frederic | Dec 5, 2007 | Reply

    Well, I am glad to learn that and I will make sure to visit these historic sites whem I visit Nigeria in the next 8 months or so.
    could you already share with me the name of these locations so the I look em up, It would be interesting to find out about their conception of urban space and urban life back then.

    Historians, sociologists, writers, cinematographers,painters and singers have a lot work to do integrating these kind of information in the collective consciouness .
    Are the people of Calabar descendants of these old Nigerian urbanites ?
    How many such urban centers existed and what was the percentage of the African/Nigerian population living in these centers ?

    However let me ask you not to be puzzled by my statement, the reality of our recent history is such that the average great grand parents , grand- parent , and our parent were not born in a urban setting , did not grow up in a urban setting and certainly were not experiencing their real and total immersion in an urban environement until they attended college in the city.

    I have seen a lot of Africans who grew up in a rural setting or whose parents grew up in the rural setting do not react the same as the ones who grew up in an urban setting or whose parents grew up in a urban setting , when talking about or coming to New York, London or Paris etc..
    If you are a true urbanites , it is all the same , a city is a city , minor cultural differences that make them charming or not… but overall
    a city is the same everywhere., Tokyo, New York, Jozi, Paris, Rio , Sydney,Abidjan,Casablanca,Cairo,Berlin, Amsterdam,Madrid, Toronto are just cities.
    The largest number of African living and developing in a urban center has been reached during our generation , do we have the tools necessary to cope with the urban lifestyle ? Who will make us aware of the tools needed to cope with such lifestyle , our ancestors who on average did not live in such setting ?
    We can be nostalgic and reflect on the great things we used to do , that is very good for awareness, but present conditions and recent history must guide our analysis. Let ‘ s not act as sports fans that think back to the heydays of their team in 1920 instead of considering the present situation of the leaugue, the availble pool of talent,what would be needed from the leadership , the shortcomings of the stable of players on the roster, The upcoming draft and how to get their hands on good players. a litteral example of the would be the Boston celtics in the NBA.

    We have the opportunity to reflect and create or adopt/africanize tools needed to cope with the urban lifestyle, let ’s do so.
    Note* speaking from the perspective of a third generation city dweller .

64. Issamashambazhou | Dec 5, 2007 | Reply

    No i don’t Pammy. But that is beside the point i’m trying to make here. Seeing things from a European perspective when one has lived in Europe for a considerable amount of time is ALWAYS inevitable and there is no harm in that. Problems begin when one decide to FOLLOW the European cultures and expect everybody else around her/him to make that change.

    Similarly, asking an African man to change and see the world from a European man’s perspective, disregarding our vastly different cultural upbringings may just be too much for the African man. Our expectations from women are deep-rooted in our culture which isn’t necessarily a ‘bad’ culture BUT it has it’s pros and cons. So my argument is, African women seem to be ambivalent when it comes to choosing where they really want to go in terms of culture. Most modern African girls want a piece of the European culture and a piece of their own which, again, isn’t necessarily a bad thing but MAY HAVE unfair consequences on the African man. That’s all i’m saying.

    P/S:
    An example of a non-African culture which modern African girls want a piece of, is the sharing of Kitchen chores and laundry. According to most African cultures, that is a woman’s territory (although men do help here and there).

65. Don Thieme | Dec 5, 2007 | Reply

    I am no expert on African history and archaeology, but I do know that the city of Oyo is very old and goes back to medieval times. There is also old Benin in Edo state.

66. Frederic N'sienie | Dec 6, 2007 | Reply

    @ Don Thieme ,Thank you , I will Mark these two cities and make sure to read up on them and visit them during my stay in Nigeria.

67. Omotaylor | Dec 6, 2007 | Reply

    @Frederic – If you appreciate the beauty of cultural history, the of course Oyo, Calabar, Benin, Badagry and Kano are places to visit in Nigeria. But be careful especially on the roads. Good speed.

68. seleipiri akobo | Feb 12, 2008 | Reply

    Thank you so much for this post. i ahve had numerous discussion in this light with friends and you just highlighted these as clear as could be. Lots of men in their insecurity and sence of superiority believe that women need to kneel at their feet, and be at their beck and call in everything they do a everytime. But like you rightfully stated, there has to be some meeting ground, some form of compromise, but no african men see that as being weak and taken advantage of. I dont care been called wild for my ideologies, but i know lots of women before me have gone through too much for me to sit down, fold my hands and be bothered about being called wild.

69. mick in SA | Feb 19, 2008 | Reply

    Hi,
    Sorry to intrude, as this is slightly off topic but some of the issues i’ve been facing in the last few months have surfaced here.

    I am a white man, in a relationship with a black south African woman, we are both successful professionals, i came to SA to work, met my GF and we have been together for 8 months, in general, everything is great, couple of issues/ questions I would like to discuss with the board, for the past 2 months I have not been working (finished my contract) and have been living in her flat here, i feel that she does not respect me as much as before, we argue more, she doesn’t find me as attractive, is harsher in her tone of voice and our sex life is reduced/less fun, the idea was for me to relax in the African summer before we both moved to Europe to work,

    I reckon this is just a man / woman thing, with race playing little part, however, a part of me things that she respects me less as I now am not in a locally considered important media role, I have been frustrated by local events while chilling, find it difficult to relax as I did before when taking a break from work as a single man, when i lived here in a very cool house, she always stayed at mine and the relationship was different,

    Here’s a question, do African women need to see a man as successful, powerful, dominant, more than white woman in order to feel comfortable in a relationship?

    I have virtually no friends here, while her friends know me and at social events I am (happily) the only white person there, we don’t go out much, nor am I ever invited out by her black male friends to boys events

    We never have PDAs, initially she said she didn’t like them, then admitted that she felt uncomfortable, due to the legacy issues here, no she says it’s considered disrespectful among black for to engage in PDAs.

    Is this true? Can someone explain it to me? Why is this so?

    Frankly I’m sick and tired of how race infects everything here in this country, the stares, the awkward pauses from all sides, even the shitty out loud comments to our faces from all sides.

    Are all African countries as obsessed with race and mixed race relationships as SA?

    I can’t wait for us to leave for London, as much as I love this country and would like to come back in a few years, another minor issue is that even though here parents know she is going out with me, the idea of us living together is taboo, I understand this, I’m Irish, until very recently it was the same in Ireland.

    Is this common around Africa?, is it a Christian thing or just old fashioned?

    I suppose I’m looking for other people’s experience and not from an African American experience, but an African one.

    My girl has been very honest that she doesn’t date men from her own ethic group as their behaviour and expectations are out of order, i.e. domestic violence, cheating, assuming the girl will cook and be domestic, I agree with her about how lots of local black guys operate and am glad that we understand each other and get on so well, but at the same time, lately I feel a bit emasculated and find that her tone of voice, sharp, snappy criticism is hard to take,

    Could she not be just a little bit more feminine?, softer in her voice and ways?

    Is it so hard to get your own way in a feminine way without feeling that it’s the only way/ demeaning and that it undermines your strength as a strong young black woman?

    Do black men find the same things in relationships, i love the fact that she is a strong, young, black woman and I respect and admire her, but a shrew of any hew is a difficult thing to deal with.

    These are just musings, I know all will be well and we will have great times ahead, i would just like to hear other’s views and experiences.

    This is my first experience of a mixed race (black(African)/white(European) relationship of such depth and feel that I have no one that I can talk to that has any experience or understanding of the situation, I have tried googling with little success.

    Thanks for your time,

    Be well

    S

70. Pamela | Feb 20, 2008 | Reply

    Wow, this is deep, “S”.

    What is PDA???

71. seleipiri akobo | Feb 20, 2008 | Reply

    PDA is an acronym for public display of affection.

72. Misi | Feb 20, 2008 | Reply

    @Mick, I am sorry to hear about the stress you are going through with your GF. I am going to attempt answering some of your questions helpfully it helps you see things from the African prospective.
    “Do African women need to see a man as successful, powerful, dominant, more than white woman in order to feel comfortable in a relationship?” To be quite honest with you the most likely cause of your stress with her is because you don’t have a job and you are dependent on her for now. Most African women expect their man to fend for them and not the other way round. Unlike the white woman – for example a white female doctor can marry a janitor while a black female will never do that, in most cases she would rather marry a man that is equally qualified or better. So to answer your question yes most African women will like a successful and powerful man but not necessary dominant but the modern tend is equal partners. Also in the African culture the man is the king of the castle (meaning his home and his wife/GF) but how can a man be a king of the castle when he has no job or money to fend for his family.
    “PDA-Is this true? Can someone explain it to me? Why is this so?” I don’t know about SA but in Nigeria people look at white people in awe and the black women that date them as materialistic whores. And because of that reason your GF might not feel comfortable doing PDA because she doesn’t want to be viewed as described above. But all this shouldn’t matter since y’all know the true affection you share and you know the relationship is founded on love and not money—so people’s snares is totally irrelevant. Also remember SA has gone through apartheid where “whites” and “blacks” were killing each other…even though it is the past people probably still hold grudges for that.
    “Are all African countries as obsessed with race and mixed race relationships as SA?” I can only speak for Nigeria and yes people always stare for the reasons mentioned above.
    “Is this common around Africa? Is it a Christian thing or just old fashioned?” This is based on a bit of both and also on the African culture. It is generally believed that a woman should not live with a man until she is married. And like you rightly mentioned is considered a taboo. African women get away with it more when they do not live in Africa but if she lives in Africa- in most cases it is unacceptable.
    “Could she not be just a little bit more feminine? Softer in her voice and ways?” African women tend to come across more aggressive than say a white woman. It is our nature, we like to exhibit strength and passion even when we are faced with no odds. Your GF is probably getting a lot of stress from her people and she thinks putting a bold front is the best way to handle things and in the process the bold front comes to you unexpectedly and undesirably. If you get my drift. Also Africans are strident people, so don’t take it personally when she talks and seems like she is shouting, it’s probably her exhibiting her true African ways.
    “Do black men find the same things in relationships?” Black men are used to it, although they can be equally aggressive so they know how to handle the situation.
    All in all my suggestion to you is to stay strong and firm and communicate with your GF at all times.

73. bachelor | Apr 6, 2008 | Reply

    As a bachelor who has been contemplating this choice now for some times, I have to say that african girls in europe leave me rather cold.
    It has nothing to do with competition or loss of culture neither. In my case, it’s their extreme materialistic and shallow nature. Part of it may be due to the fact that most of them at some point or other are in a precarious situation economically or because of immigration issues, they learn some bad habits. The first thing they want to do is figure what they can get out of you within a few minutes. Interestingly, african girls in america are not like this at all, at least most of them. On the other hand, native black american women behave almost like african girls in europe.
    This is so irrespective of their economic situation.
    Yet the african men both in america and europe go home for wives; so therefore various factors must be involved.
    One of them is family pressure. admonitions from influencial family members to marry someone from the same locality where you come from. Another factor perhaps is the pressure africans abroad are in, each one usually support at least half a dozen people back home. This may cause the african women abroad to play cold calculating games (two timing, hopping from man to man…)in search of financial security or ways to supplement their earnings… This may sore some men who view them as unfit later for wives. Even when they make good money, most african women abroad seem to expect that their potential guy should make far more money than them and should supplement their lifestyle from the get go.
    This is very emasculating to african guys who can not meet this condition.
    interestingly, from my experience, african girls just like african american girls do very bad at judging mens economic situation or character as compared to white women. They always judge by surface factors like car, clothing, jewelry…
    So some of the african men play along, to sleep with them;
    even while they are disgusted, excluding them as wife material when the time comes.
    Other women do take on the western habit. They want to do as they please but forget the 50/50 part of it.
    In my personal experience, most african women abroad lack patience, don’t take much time to try and know the black men around them as individuals when approached by the men…
    They also tend to put all the efforts in forming the relationship on the men; and remain passive waiting for the men to do everything perfect…even while they remain quite un committed.
    To make matter worse, for africans abroad, the social center is usually the local african watering hole or night club; usually a very superficial environment where people come for attention; and not fit for good conversations…
    Another thing is that some african women when they reach the western world, believing that they are free, act on it. They dress and sometimes act in ways that are construed as promiscous slutty …
    All said, most single african women abroad are not too supportive of their potential black mates either emotionally or otherwise…
    In my case in fact, since I want an african woman but hate the extreme materialistic women,I have a ritual to weed out those out; and sadly to report, nothing has remain in the net so far. Here where I live, most african women have two or three questions they ask you(a black man). Do you work for one of the international organization ? A no answer by you to them means that you’re either a student or refugee which in most cases result in instant rejection or change of behavior. (as if the only job a black man can do is limited to that here…)
    The other question is do you have a car ? or some variation of that… My answer to both questions is usually a no !
    I currently live in a city with a large number of single african women from all over the continent; am financially secure,dress well enough, good looking even if I say so myself and I have really tried to get to know some, but because most are very shallow and too calculating not much success… By the time, a few of them somehow eventually find out enough about me to pick their interest, i usually have also found out enough about them to cure any potential romantic interest in them…
    I do see quite a lot of them married or dating ugly old white men just for papers or money… It doesn’t even figure to them that a young black man can give them both.
    Once in that situation, they then want secret sexual liasion with african men…
    On the other hand, if I go to the night club and get a table and order a bottle of whiskey for say $250 or more, come and see how many of these women will start hovering around my table…After polishing the bottle with them, you may be able to convince one to do your bidding if they don’t all run off to another nearby table more plentiful than yours. Does anyone dream of meeting their wife like this ?
    Yet, I see this often enough, and even some unfortunate brother band together to be able to afford this costly weekly ritual to them; just so they can get a little attention from the african women, perhaps a phone number or a chance to find out if they are single …
    In short, if african women abroad are interested in finding husbands among africans abroad (which i doubt ), they have to communicate better with african men abroad, they have to be less passive when it comes to relationships, less materialistic, think long term instead of what can he do for me now…
    They have to look at relationship with african man as a investment not cash cow or instant payback.
    Lastly, they have to respect themselves, their bodies. They have to realize that just because they have some measure of economic and social freedom doesn’t mean that they don’t need men or men are just some toys to be manipulated to compete for their attention and affection, discarding them carelessly along the way. They have to respect and want african men, and be willing to work harder in making relationships work.

74. pammy | Apr 6, 2008 | Reply

    hmmmmmmm…..interesting take bachelor.

75. power chris | Nov 14, 2008 | Reply

    hi,i must say you are the most beautifull creature that i ve ever wanted to know in my entire life,you are so articulate,so resourcefull and intelligent,the kind of a lady that every reasonable man will want to have as a wife,you inspire a lot of tenderness in me,i like you a lot,and will want to be your best friend,please dont dispise this wonderfull begining,we could be of help to each other,we never can tell,i love nature,and i appreciate every good thing it has provided for us,im from Nigeria from Africa,i love to make friends from around the world,what i admire most is your level of intelligence,your courage,you are a superwoman,please take good care of yourself for me,i will be waiting to hear from you soon my angel of love,for they say love blossoms in the heart of those who cherish it,and also ,it makes the world go round,its also is a gift that keeps on giving.you can call me on.+2348036012028. or +2348057664697..cheers and lots of love from me your humble friend,from Nigeria,and from Africa. i hope a dozen rosses will do,thanks for putting me into consideration,you are a darling…………..byeeee.
    Power Chris.

76. Omotaylor | Nov 15, 2008 | Reply

    power chris comment above made me read through the post and all the comments on this post by Pammelastitch. It was good, educative, enduring and quiet funny in places. How I love our long and persistent discourse on the Loft. Hope we get time to really comment on posts for in the future we visit them again and find them very interesting cum amusing.
    @power chris,re your comment above ????????????

77. Issa | Nov 15, 2008 | Reply

    I can’t believe this thread is still going on. I also can’t believe i wrote some of that stuff. I think i was a bit too aggressive in some of my responds and i must truly from the bottom of my heart, apologize to you Pammy. But i also must admit i’ve really missed debating (or arguing) with you lol.

    Omotaylor, how have you been?

78. Omotaylor | Nov 16, 2008 | Reply

    Issa I dey fine and kept on hoping your studies will soon finish so that we can enjoy your presence on the Loft. Keep the passion going for this is what makes the world go round and round (we dont want a viscious circle though). Eagerly awaiting your return, or should I say comeback?

79. A.W.E | Jan 1, 2009 | Reply

    African Women you can do it. Just belive in yourself. Other African Women are achieving their goals.
    http://www.africawomen.net

80. Obeebo | Jul 15, 2009 | Reply

    Its really funny how I came to this discussion. I was thinking how a lot of the African women I have been meeting are so called “wild cards” So I typed “wild african girls” in google to see if anyone felt the same way I did and found this blog. I don’t know about other African men, but this is not the type of girl I want to marry. Every time I go out I see the same women plus more drinking like crazy and being promiscuous. Amongst these women, there seem to be no kind of moderation. What is going on, oh? Good African women are hard to find. All the good ones I see are all ready taken and the funny thing is some of these women were picked up from home. From my experiences, I’m going to have say that a good portion of African women in the Diaspora are wild. I don’t beat women and never will. I’m not trying to have control over women. I don’t really care if a woman’s cooks for me or not, I can cook for myself. I’m just a regular hard working good guy that feels I should be able to a have an equally as good woman. And I know other African men that are in the same dilemma as me. Any time I find myself involved with a women that feels it alright to be wild I just cut them off. What kind of man wants a women that can’t keep herself at a home, is out of control, and frequents nights clubs on a regular basis? Where are these Virtuous Women in Proverbs 31:10-31? Why should I need to leave where I am to find one?

81. Misi | Jul 15, 2009 | Reply

    @Obeebo, I beg to differ on your assertions and I think you unfairly painted women in Diaspora with a color of being wild and sluts, something that does not fit them. I can tell you quite categorically that I know tons of beautiful, professional, single and responsible African women in America. You forget that America is not our country so the number of African women you meet in America are limited, not enough to generalize their behaviors. Also thanks to the exposure in America many African women here (unlike their African counterparts in Africa) know their right and can fend for themselves. Something I can’t help but think this threatens African men in Diaspora into classifying these women as wild and uncontrollable simply because they are intimidated by them. Also some of these men go to clubs hoping to find a woman, now tell me how can you go to a club to find a good woman? Not to condemn occasional club hoppers, but everyone knows that the chances of finding a good woman there is slim or next to none. The long and short of it is Obeebo is that not all African women in Diaspora are wild and if you don’t believe me I could hook you up:-)

82. Obeebo | Jul 18, 2009 | Reply

    @Misi Lol Hook me up, eh? Please do, I’m always open for good options. I’m definitely not intimidated by successful African women. Those are the ones that I prefer. I want a woman thats on the same level as me economically. And its not just clubs where I meet women. I’ve met many African women through family friends and social gatherings. I’ve had good experiences, but also bad ones. Growing up, I look at my mother and father’s relationship as the guide to what I want. They’ve been together for over 30 years. My mother, a country Liberian woman, is where I set my standards for the women I meet. This is why I look for a woman who has a similar upbringing that can carry herself properly and remembers where she comes from. So it bothers me seeing some African women acting out in a way that is disrespectful to themselves.

83. power chris | Jul 21, 2009 | Reply

    African women are the most beautiful women in the world today,its just unfortunate they are vulnorable and an endangered species.they need to be focused,embrase what they have,it sure going to help them a lot.

84. Mark | Nov 18, 2009 | Reply

    As a white man who has dated both African women (Kenya, Tanzania) and black American women, I see this from two perspectives. On the one hand I definitely see these ladies point regarding how African men frequently treat them, and in fact I’ve talked to African men who point blank say that women are inferior, and they look down on their African sisters in the Diaspora for exactly the reasons stated.

    On the other hand, that attitude means I have a better shot at one of these gorgeous creatures! And yes…African women…black women in general…are the world’s most beautiful.

    Lol…keep it up African guys!

85. Mark | Nov 18, 2009 | Reply

    As a white man who has dated both African women and black American women, I see this from two perspectives. On the one hand I definitely see these ladies point regarding how African men frequently treat them, and in fact I’ve talked to African men who point blank say that women are inferior, and they look down on their African sisters in the Diaspora.

    On the other hand, that attitude means I have a better shot at one of these gorgeous creatures! And yes…African women…black women in general…are the world’s most beautiful.

    Lol…keep it up African guys!

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